HI,
I do understand the law part, you seem to ignore what my point is. All
countries have similar laws but if I call you a dirt name, no court is
going to consider this like breaking the law, unless there's other things
involved.
I do understand your concerns tho.
So, we reach here a thin line between legal and illegal, but this is not
what I meant, again, I understand the legal treat involved with personal
aggressions, or internet bullying and all this kind of shit, but enforcing
this rules, and judging by yourself, on a legal decision that should not be
made by you at the first place, is so dangerous and can be passive of
punishment much like the same. Of course racism and defamation are easily
spotted sometimes, but not always, and I doubt that you understand the
jurisprudence enough to judge by yourself.
Sure, this is why it's better to have a team of people.
Imagine if anyone want to charge someone else with a legal complain,
he would need to PROVE that he is not right, and that the comments are
defamation, it's not just black and white like you are saying.
Indeed, it's not just black and white, like I'm saying :)
To exemplify what I'm saying, take another clear and recent example
(and please, try to open your mind and think in the big picture, instead of
again, going blind in rage),
You must confuse with someone else, I've never being in rage nor even a
little angry. People knowing me may think I'm apathic even :)
Per Oyvind was here saying that the council, and specifically some
people, are doing a shitty work (using much dirtier words), those involved
can prosecute him based on this defamation law, but how you are going to
prove that he's lying, if it involves a subjective matter, that even a
judge would have problems judging.
IMHO Per Øyvind should not be moderated any more on mailing list, it's
unfair, in my own pov, that he's still moderated but the fact is that no
one for now is taking care about moderation and un-moderation process.
About defamation or injure, it's complicated, like we said, this is why
there is this discussion. Some people don't like the fact people are
moderated, other don't like the fact this is not moderated, because you can
say something right, but in a wrong way. How to react, Who is right? this
is exactly the discussion that was raised here.
Who are the moderators to have such a direct response and blame him
guilty, to a extent of actually cutting him off the list?
It's not clear, atm. This is also why we need to clarify this with as
clear as possible rules, openly discussed, and a real team.
This kind of disagreements happens all time in mailing list all over
the world in different topics of several communities, and I don't think
that an Open community (with capital O, like we want this to be) is doing
right in blocking people that disagree with ANY kind of topic, or defining
what is a aggression, and what is a discussion, this is hardly trolling or
FUD, it's just clashing of opinions and points of view.
It's not easy, this is exactly what you and i say, it's why having a
team of people and clear (as much as possible) rules may help. But people
are people, they can be wrong.
Can you understand what is my point here now? I'm not disagreeing with
clear rules, but you need to be very clear on how to apply this, and
disagreements are not the same as infringing laws, so I can, I beg you,
think this through very calmly, and create the clear distinction between
what is law enforcement, and what is conduct enforcing, because the way you
are doing this now, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, is not really clear.
Well, if you mean "me" by "you", it's not my project, but a project from
the association (at least, a project from 5 or 6 people :/ ). And I'm
pretty sure many things are not clear, I de facto agree you, this is why
there need discussions, improvement, clarification fixing etc.
And here it is where you're clearly wrong and proves yourself as being
nothing better than certain managers and investors of the past trying to
gain control and own the project.
This project is *not* a project of the association nor the property of but
the developers behind it, this was even told you by several people ranging
from Bruce Precenes to pretty much everyone who attended the emergency
meeting in March when everyone was fed up with the association's
interference with the project.
Did you respect this at all? Not the slightest, in stead you chose to
hijack the project to force your name onto it, redefine meritocracy (when
you figured out what it actually implied) to something suiting you better
in order to claim not only less control and influence than the next guy and
those of us who has contributed for ages and actually have real merit to
show for, but rather for you to claim as much as possible based on that you
handled much of the paperwork of the association and being it's president.
Meritocracy has a quite universal meaning and well recognized implications
in the context of Free Software, something which only you (and yourself
alone, I did see noone else backing you up on, only the exact opposite)
refused to acknowledge and accept, but rather chose to proclaim cooker
project as dead (which only you yourself made your own decission solely
yourself again about), claiming the project now to be a new one where
merits no longer is the obvious thing that is recognized by everone and
built up over longer periods, but rather something that you will define
what is to be recognized as and throw away the already existing and
recognized merits of all the others in order for you to be able to come
late to the party and pretend that you've actually contributed and made
significant achievements in the context of, while the cruel truth is almost
the absolute opposite when it comes to the actual project itself.
Most people on this list has earned themself considerably more merit than
you over the year, but you reject recognizing and acknowledging it for your
own selfish reasons.
And this isn't insulting to just me, but to everyone else here.
The project needs to be supported by the association in order for the
developers to be able to keep it alive.
What the project does *NOT* need is an association to own and control it,
this was one of the major motivations for this association to protect
against this.
When the project was own by Mandriva, it did at least had competent staff
that was hired in based on their expertize, experience and skills, while
also there being a focus on having to generate revenues to, preventing
things like these to happen because it won't be tolerated by investors who
cares mainly about their investment and how to best protect it.
This association OTOH is now run by people which in stead of having having
much of these qualifications and motivations, cares more about their own
agenda and how they want to run and control the project which they don't
even contribute any development themself to.
Mandriva has gotten a lot of bad reputation, with people being concerned
about management, investors etc. over the years, but it doesn't even come
close to how much worse threath and destructive this association is to the
project..
Wwhen you last questioned whether you should rresign or not, I said that
you definitive should, and while you didn't, you didn't even try change
your behaviour or listen to others. You really oughta reflect over this,
and if you have any integrity and self-insight left, you really should do
so rather than just questioning about it without any intent on actually
doing so, only faking humblness for sympathy.
Have you asked yourself whether the cooker *project* itself has improved or
not as a result of your activties and involvement/interference over the
last month?
For the rest, I think gmoro covered things pretty well (and you might just
wanna reflect on and give it a thought of why gmoro no longer wants to be a
part of this community anymore...), even although I myself would've
probably been a bit more blunt and made some stronger points, but I'll
spare everyones' time and aggitation from further discussions leading
nowhere...
(And for the record, this isn't a personal attack, but rather recollection
of the last pariod, from undeniable a biased and not unlkely subjective
view).
Yeahyeah, some people will get provoked by this post, some hate me, some
agree, some fully support it, and possibly generate yet more controversy,
but certain things needs to be said, and the overly political correctness
cooker has almost always suffered from with little tolerance for critical
discussions that are sorely needed, only leaving us running round in
circles without true issues ever actually being fixed, it can't possibly
hurt more in any way than everything has done lately by my me making such
less popular posts...
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind