[OM Cooker] Odp.: Re: Makedev perl to bash conversion

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Afaict makedev isn't even installed anymore...
I don't have it on my installs... Do you?
Can we move to retired the package from main?

I think the only usefulness of makedev package is the files under /dev, in
situations where /dev hasn't been mounted..
These special devices could just as well be moved to a different package.

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Colin Guthrie]

Afaict makedev isn't even installed anymore...
I don't have it on my installs... Do you?
Can we move to retired the package from main?
I think the only usefulness of makedev package is the files under /dev,
in situations where /dev hasn't been mounted..
These special devices could just as well be moved to a different package.

makedev is pretty much useless these days.

kmod now writes tmpfiles.d conf snippets in /run for creating static
device nodes via systemd-tmpfiles which will allow creation of static
nodes on early boot.

That said, most kernel drivers these days will create their own nodes as
needed and there is an ongoing effort to actually remove CAP_MKNOD from
processes that don't need it anyway, so the usefulness and desirability
of a statically generated /dev is really questionable these days.

Col
--
Colin Guthrie
colin(at)mageia.org
http://colin.guthr.ie/

Day Job:
Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/
Open Source:
Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/
PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/
Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

**
It still provides dev and still owns /dev directory.
This has to be fixed and some parts need to be moved to filesystem and
udev subpackage or kmod.

Speaking of, despite my objection previously, someone went ahead and merged
the setup & filesystem package, which given that /etc/passwd needs to exist
before the filesystem package in order for usernames to be available to set
file ownership, just screws up further what was intended to be fixed.

Would be nice if this change would get reverted.

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

**
It still provides dev and still owns /dev directory.
This has to be fixed and some parts need to be moved to filesystem and
udev subpackage or kmod.

Speaking of, despite my objection previously, someone went ahead and
merged the setup & filesystem package, which given that /etc/passwd needs
to exist before the filesystem package in order for usernames to be
available to set file ownership, just screws up further what was intended
to be fixed.
Would be nice if this change would get reverted.
Reverting is perfectly sane if and only if setup is ordered before
all other packages always.
Installing setup (for password lookup) isn't close to being true for any
modern linux distro, and
(last I looked) was particularly bad in Mandriva based systems, with
large numbers
of dependency loop's.
It simply does not matter whether you have combined setup+filesystem
or separate setup and filesystem packages.

Sure, it's an issue to address, and as we're currently left in this
situation, it doesn't really matter (merging the two were a flawed attempt
to resolve this), but I really hope to be able to address the ordering
issue sometime in the not so distant future. :)

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Jeffrey Johnson]

Good intentions (rather than better QA) are unlikely to achieve success.

The problem is also worse than ordering installation of /etc/passwd before
the directory structure is installed so that uid/gid can be looked up.

On a bare metal installation (or an empty chroot creation), one also needs to
be able to lookup users/groups.

That basically means that ALL user/group lookups are NOT coming from
packaged content.

Nor can that problem be meaningfully solved: one would have to restart
the install after glibc (with its lookup services) is installed to be able to
lookup the data in /etc/passwd.

But I digress ... It Really Doesn't Matter whether setup <-> filesystem
are combined or separate is all that I am saying.

The hardwired user/group lookups in RPM have been solving this chicken <-> egg
problem all century with nobody the wiser.

73 de Jeff

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

It still provides dev and still owns /dev directory.
This has to be fixed and some parts need to be moved to filesystem and udev subpackage or kmod.
Speaking of, despite my objection previously, someone went ahead and merged the setup & filesystem package, which given that /etc/passwd needs to exist before the filesystem package in order for usernames to be available to set file ownership, just screws up further what was intended to be fixed.
Would be nice if this change would get reverted.

Reverting is perfectly sane if and only if setup is ordered before
all other packages always.
Installing setup (for password lookup) isn't close to being true for any modern linux distro, and
(last I looked) was particularly bad in Mandriva based systems, with large numbers
of dependency loop's.
It simply does not matter whether you have combined setup+filesystem
or separate setup and filesystem packages.
Sure, it's an issue to address, and as we're currently left in this situation, it doesn't really matter (merging the two were a flawed attempt to resolve this), but I really hope to be able to address the ordering issue sometime in the not so distant future. :)
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Tomasz Paweł Gajc]

Its matter to be consistent with other distros.
Only mdv-like provides setup package, other Have filesystem.

Wysłano z BlackBerry® w Orange

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Johnson <***@me.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 12:29:35
To: Per Øyvind Karlsen<***@moondrake.net>
Cc: Tomasz Paweł Gajc<***@wp.pl>; Cooker OpenMandriva<om-***@ml.openmandriva.org>; <***@zarb.org>
Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Odp.: Re: Odp.: Re: Makedev perl to bash
conversion

It still provides dev and still owns /dev directory.
This has to be fixed and some parts need to be moved to filesystem and udev subpackage or kmod.
Speaking of, despite my objection previously, someone went ahead and merged the setup & filesystem package, which given that /etc/passwd needs to exist before the filesystem package in order for usernames to be available to set file ownership, just screws up further what was intended to be fixed.
Would be nice if this change would get reverted.

Reverting is perfectly sane if and only if setup is ordered before
all other packages always.

Installing setup (for password lookup) isn't close to being true for any modern linux distro, and
(last I looked) was particularly bad in Mandriva based systems, with large numbers
of dependency loop's.

Short answer:
It simply does not matter whether you have combined setup+filesystem
or separate setup and filesystem packages.

73 de Jeff

[Jeffrey Johnson]

It still provides dev and still owns /dev directory.
This has to be fixed and some parts need to be moved to filesystem and udev subpackage or kmod.
Speaking of, despite my objection previously, someone went ahead and merged the setup & filesystem package, which given that /etc/passwd needs to exist before the filesystem package in order for usernames to be available to set file ownership, just screws up further what was intended to be fixed.
Would be nice if this change would get reverted.

Reverting is perfectly sane if and only if setup is ordered before
all other packages always.

Installing setup (for password lookup) isn't close to being true for any modern linux distro, and
(last I looked) was particularly bad in Mandriva based systems, with large numbers
of dependency loop's.

Short answer:
It simply does not matter whether you have combined setup+filesystem
or separate setup and filesystem packages.

73 de Jeff

[Jeffrey Johnson]

Post by Tomasz Paweł Gajc
Its matter to be consistent with other distros.

You are already entirely consistent with other distros:
RPM compiled in user <-> uid mappings are being used everywhere.

Post by Tomasz Paweł Gajc
Only mdv-like provides setup package, other Have filesystem.

It Really Doesn't Matter: do whatever you choose.

73 de Jeff

Post by Tomasz Paweł Gajc
Wysłano z BlackBerry® w Orange
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 12:29:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Odp.: Re: Odp.: Re: Makedev perl to bash conversion

It still provides dev and still owns /dev directory.
This has to be fixed and some parts need to be moved to filesystem and udev subpackage or kmod.
Speaking of, despite my objection previously, someone went ahead and merged the setup & filesystem package, which given that /etc/passwd needs to exist before the filesystem package in order for usernames to be available to set file ownership, just screws up further what was intended to be fixed.
Would be nice if this change would get reverted.

Reverting is perfectly sane if and only if setup is ordered before
all other packages always.
Installing setup (for password lookup) isn't close to being true for any modern linux distro, and
(last I looked) was particularly bad in Mandriva based systems, with large numbers
of dependency loop's.
It simply does not matter whether you have combined setup+filesystem
or separate setup and filesystem packages.
73 de Jeff

[David Walser]

________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Odp.: Re: Odp.: Re: Makedev perl to bash    conversion
Its matter to be consistent with other distros.
Only mdv-like provides setup package, other Have filesystem.

[***@Fedora ~]$ rpm -qf /etc/passwd
setup-2.8.57-1.fc18.noarch

[Jeffrey Johnson]

Yes: /etc/passwd has been in the setup package since forever.

Meanwhile the setup package is _NOT_ installed first in any rpm based distro I have personally seen all this century:
It Really Doesn't Matter
whether you split or combine.

I've made my point to Per Oyvind's complaint of a packaging "clean up" flaw: it simply isn't true that the change
fixed (or created) any real world problem.

73 de Jeff



Sent from my iPhone

Post by David Walser

________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Odp.: Re: Odp.: Re: Makedev perl to bash conversion
Its matter to be consistent with other distros.
Only mdv-like provides setup package, other Have filesystem.

setup-2.8.57-1.fc18.noarch

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Jeffrey Johnson
Yes: /etc/passwd has been in the setup package since forever.
Meanwhile the setup package is _NOT_ installed first in any rpm based
It Really Doesn't Matter
whether you split or combine.
I've made my point to Per Oyvind's complaint of a packaging "clean up"
flaw: it simply isn't true that the change
fixed (or created) any real world problem.

Indeed, it didn't create any at all.
The purpose of merging filesystem package with setup was however not to do
"clean up", but rather feeble attempt at fixing the issue with file
ownership caused by /etc/passwd not being present on system at the time of
the filesystem package being installed.
Unfortunately merging filesystem package with setup package doesn't solve
the problem either because /etc/passwd needs to be present before package
gets installed...

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind