[OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation? Really?

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

This mail is something I've been wanting to do a few times, but never

did because I didn't se much point. But now I feel a need to say something.

This will be my only input in the so called «Assosiation/OMA/OMDV vs

POK» noise. It is Not my intention or meaning to restart any heated debate
or stiring up any old wounds. But recent events on this list regarding when
certain posts are comming in leads me to a need to say something.

Isn't it time that Per Øyvind be removed from moderation? If he starts

to «misbehave» or whatnot he can always be added to the moderation list
again.

It's hard to follow some of the threads when all his posts are comming

long after replies to his moderated posts comes in. Leading me to ignore
the threads all together, because I can't follow it.

This years turn of events that resulted in one of the major contributors

beeing censored/moderated, is a major reason that I still haven't restarted
packaging for either OpenMandriva or Moondrake. Somethimes I'm tempted to
leave both OMV and Moondrake and concentrate my packaging on Mageia, and I
don't think I'm alone in thinking of leaving because of this conflict. The
continuing of the moderation is part of the conflict.

I also need to say that, looking into this from an outsiders

perspective: I don't know who's right and who's wrong. I don't know if Per
Øyvind, The assosiation or another party is the troublemaker. I really do
not care who's fault it is that things became as they are.
+1
But not only removing him from moderation, but also removing the
Association part from it. I don't understand why the association came into
a Cooker dispute to begin with, but Association != Cooker and so really
shouldn't have much power here.
I said it before, I'll say it again - let Cooker sort out things itself
without any association interference.

Hear, hear!

This was exactly the position that was reaffirmed at the cooker "emergency
meeting" back in March (that came from dissatisfaction with association
meddling), which it only took a week before the association and it's
council decided to completely ignore this and cease control of the project.
Some of the reasoning used was that since the project now was hosted on the
servers that had been donated to the association, the project belongs to
the association (according to this logic, github, sourceforge etc. must own
quite a few projects out there).

Also despite that we had explicitly made it clear that the council didn't
get to have a say in project leadership nor that we would have any member
exclusive technical committee, but rather continue with having cooker
governed through the meritocracy of active contributors, the council
decided to not only make a decission about new project leader, but they
also decided that I would no longer be allowed to be part of the technical
committee (...), thus not allowed to contribute to the project.

As a result, I've been forced to maintain a pseudo fork with a wide
selection of packages with various fixed and improvements maintained in my
own separate repo rather than being able to push all of my changes directly
to the cooker project.

For those interested, my package repository is available at
http://abf-ownloads.rosalinux.ru/mdk_personal/repository/cooker/


For the behaviour of the association and it's council and their meddling
with the project in conflict with the position shared by it's developers, I
really think we should organize a new meetingg to make sure to discuss the
situation and really reaffirm our position for real this time.

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Johnny A. Solbu]

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen
For those interested, my package repository is available at
http://abf-ownloads.rosalinux.ru/mdk_personal/repository/cooker/

That is an obvious typo. You missed a 'd'. :-)= Correct link is this one:
http://abf-downloads.rosalinux.ru/mdk_personal/repository/cooker/

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Ahoi!
think i just should provide some insights about this, since some things are
easier as they seem.
On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 01:22:29 +0200

This mail is something I've been wanting to do a few times, but never did
because I didn't se much point. But now I feel a need to say something.

This

will be my only input in the so called «Assosiation/OMA/OMDV vs POK»

noise.

It is Not my intention or meaning to restart any heated debate or

stiring up

any old wounds. But recent events on this list regarding when certain

posts

are comming in leads me to a need to say something.

I can understand this. Thanks a lot for not wanting to start this again.
So I
also will try to not let this get into another heated debate. Hope I don't
fail :)

Isn't it time that Per Øyvind be removed from moderation? If he starts to
«misbehave» or whatnot he can always be added to the moderation list

again.
Per is moderated for stating that he does not intend to follow some
guidelines
we created and discussed in TC/irc after receiving feedback from several
people
who were annoyed by the Noise and tone of the ML and irc.

Lemme try see if I get you correctly...

* I was initially moderated on this list for reasons given by the
association council
* the list is no longer moderated by the association, which no longer has
any special say in it
* I am now moderated on this list based on your decission
* Your decission to moderate me isn't based on anything I've done, but
rather that I disagree with some guidelines

Is this correct?

http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_guidelines

What we last debated this on IRC I told you that the following "rule"
wasn't acceptable:
"the topic is technical development of OMV, nothing else"

Considering that the cooker mailing list has been the project's general
purpose mailing list for all these years without ever having had any need
of moderation, I don't find it acceptable that people now comes up with new
rules to constrain the freedom & activity on the list.

There's so many issues with this, that I really don't know where to begin
if I were to fully cover this one, but I'll try keep it short..

Some people seem to interpret the rule above as that we may discuss
technical development only, where discussions revolving around any
political issues, conflicts and what not may not be discussed, regardless
of their influence on development.
What's wrong with this is too obvious for me to even bother comment on...

We took over the list with another one on moderated. We asked him if he
could
agree with this, which he did, so he was removed from moderation.
Since then we learned that we differ on some things written there, and for
sure
it might be idealistic and we all will break these guidelines from time to
time, which isn't fine but realistic. And no problem as long as we share
the
same vision and calm down after a while.
It's also true that communication is the most basic way of misunderstanding
which will/might also lead to errors on all sides.
It's just that with opposing these guidelines and stating to not intending
to follow them, I do not really see a point in behave otherwise.

You don't see the effects from this behaviours of yours as points worth
considering?

And it's not that we're enforcing that very hard, we just try to solve
conflicts.

The conflict that caused a lot of noise and tension on cooker list was
caused by meddling from the association council, I don't see you solving
anything related to that conflict, rather the opposite..

It's hard to follow some of the threads when all his posts are comming

long

after replies to his moderated posts comes in. Leading me to ignore the
threads all together, because I can't follow it.

I'm very sorry for that. Part comes from old heated threats getting warmed
up
again, but during the last week most of it came due to bero having bad
connectivity and me not having that much time during daylight hours.

bero's connectivity problems must obviously be quite chronic then..

This years turn of events that resulted in one of the major contributors
beeing censored/moderated, is a major reason that I still haven't

restarted

packaging for either OpenMandriva or Moondrake. Somethimes I'm tempted to
leave both OMV and Moondrake and concentrate my packaging on Mageia, and

I

don't think I'm alone in thinking of leaving because of this conflict.

The

continuing of the moderation is part of the conflict.

We're in trouble here without a perfect solution. People are wanting to
leave
because of either way. So moderation has been a solution to get some people
back in, while others see it as opposing the spirit of total freedom.

We've never had any use for moderation in the past and has always relied on
the considerably larger amount of freedom given to developers that is to be
creditted for that we've still been able to produce a decent distribution
despite only having a fragment of developers compared to other competing
projects.

Commenting on all the things that's wrong with this solution of yours is
something I consider rather redundant, is there actually anyone who's able
to make any sober arguments in support of this solution?

Just as we didn't need the association to control the project, we don't
need anyone to control our communication.

I also need to say that, looking into this from an outsiders

perspective: I

don't know who's right and who's wrong. I don't know if Per Øyvind, The
assosiation or another party is the troublemaker. I really do not care

who's

fault it is that things became as they are.

I can understand your point and started from there. I however don't have
the
chance to totally take me out of the conflict.
I saw things as mostly settled with Per leading moondrake and also
developing/patching some software true to the mandrake roots, and oma doing
the groundwork of packaging and bug-fixing as well as other core stuff for
openmandriva.

I'm being forced to fork the project into a separate one, having to find my
own ways around to even be able to communicate with the other people
involved with the project, do you really think that I'm happy with this?

I also think that there should be a place for everyone now. Contributing
to the
packages will help omv as well as moondrake, contributing to moondrake will
help moondrake and maybe others using software from there, contributing to
the
drakxtools/* might help all of us, including mageia.

This is just dumb.

Me doing my development elsewhere and having to keep track of all changes
everywhere and vice versa without any coordination, why do you think this
is any good?

The lack of leadership and progress for the past months certainly doesn't
hold up as all that great arguments in favor of this..

It's just that I don't see us going back to where we were several months
ago
since then it has often been quite lonely :)

No idea what you mean by this..

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Ben Bullard]

I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict.
Obviously internal discussion/meetings have produced no result
acceptable to all involved.

Just one humble users opinion.

[devnet]

I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict. Obviously
internal discussion/meetings have produced no result acceptable to all
involved.
Just one humble users opinion.
--
Ben Bullard

I'm thinking everyone just needs to quit crying about spilled milk and work
on the distribution. Who gives a crap what went on when? Move forward and
leave your ego at the door.

I thought I left primary school 30 years ago. Evidently, it's still in
session..

[Ben Bullard]

Post by Ben Bullard
I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict.
Obviously internal discussion/meetings have produced no result
acceptable to all involved.
Just one humble users opinion.
--
Ben Bullard
I'm thinking everyone just needs to quit crying about spilled milk and
work on the distribution. Who gives a crap what went on when? Move
forward and leave your ego at the door.
I thought I left primary school 30 years ago. Evidently, it's still
in session..
--
________________________________________
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/dkdevine/>
<https://plus.google.com/117069291335504349557/posts>
<https://twitter.com/devnet>
devnet
http://linux-blog.org

Frankly what you write ismore articulate and better said than what I
wrote. Closer to what I really believe. Thanks for wise words.

[David Walser]

Post by Ben Bullard

Post by Ben Bullard
I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict.
Obviously internal discussion/meetings have produced no result
acceptable to all involved.
Just one humble users opinion.
--
Ben Bullard
I'm thinking everyone just needs to quit crying about spilled milk and
work on the distribution. Who gives a crap what went on when? Move
forward and leave your ego at the door.
I thought I left primary school 30 years ago. Evidently, it's still
in session..
--
________________________________________
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/dkdevine/>
<https://plus.google.com/117069291335504349557/posts>
<https://twitter.com/devnet>
devnet
http://linux-blog.org

Frankly what you write ismore articulate and better said than what I
wrote. Closer to what I really believe. Thanks for wise words.
--
Thanks,
Ben

I basically agree, but people have to have the ability to just work on
the distribution, without having to deal with artificial barriers that
prevent them from doing so. If that could just be fixed, all of this
fighting could end and everyone could get back to work without all the
drama.

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Ben Bullard

Post by Ben Bullard
I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict.
Obviously internal discussion/meetings have produced no result
acceptable to all involved.
Just one humble users opinion.
--
Ben Bullard
I'm thinking everyone just needs to quit crying about spilled milk and
work on the distribution. Who gives a crap what went on when? Move
forward and leave your ego at the door.
I thought I left primary school 30 years ago. Evidently, it's still
in session..
--
______________________________**__________
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/**dkdevine/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/dkdevine/>
<https://plus.google.com/**117069291335504349557/posts<https://plus.google.com/117069291335504349557/posts>
<https://twitter.com/devnet>
devnet
http://linux-blog.org

Frankly what you write ismore articulate and better said than what I
wrote. Closer to what I really believe. Thanks for wise words.
--
Thanks,
Ben

I basically agree, but people have to have the ability to just work on the
distribution, without having to deal with artificial barriers that prevent
them from doing so. If that could just be fixed, all of this fighting
could end and everyone could get back to work without all the drama.

Exactly.

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[devnet]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Per Øyvind Karlsen

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

Post by David Walser
I basically agree, but people have to have the ability to just work on
the distribution, without having to deal with artificial barriers that
prevent them from doing so. If that could just be fixed, all of this
fighting could end and everyone could get back to work without all the
drama.

Exactly.
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

No, not exactly. You're wasting man power on focusing on things behind you
instead of in front of you. Moderated on a list means that your posts
still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag toward
people. Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop.

Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an
actual one.


It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one thing
that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution. What a novel
concept eh? Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning
about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or others...or pissing
and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as long as you focus on the
distribution instead of pissing and moaning.

Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets results and motivates
people to do jobs for some of the largest companies in the world...what do
I know?

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Per Øyvind Karlsen <

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

Post by David Walser
I basically agree, but people have to have the ability to just work on
the distribution, without having to deal with artificial barriers that
prevent them from doing so. If that could just be fixed, all of this
fighting could end and everyone could get back to work without all the
drama.

Exactly.
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

No, not exactly. You're wasting man power on focusing on things behind
you instead of in front of you. Moderated on a list means that your posts
still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag toward
people. Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop.
Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an
actual one.
It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one
thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution. What a novel
concept eh? Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning
about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or others...or pissing
and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as long as you focus on the
distribution instead of pissing and moaning.

What you fail to comprehend is that the artificial barriers aren't limited
to just mailing list, but also on build platform.

Being unable to push my changes to cooker obviously gets in the way for me
to be able to focus on the distribution, no?

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[David Walser]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Per Øyvind Karlsen
I basically agree, but people have to have the ability to just
work on the distribution, without having to deal with artificial
barriers that prevent them from doing so. If that could just be
fixed, all of this fighting could end and everyone could get
back to work without all the drama.
Exactly.
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind
No, not exactly. You're wasting man power on focusing on things behind
you instead of in front of you. Moderated on a list means that your
posts still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag
toward people. Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop.
Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an
actual one.

Ah, but you're assuming that the people doing the moderation make this
distinction perfectly. Unfortunately, humans aren't perfect.

It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one
thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution. What a
novel concept eh? Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and
moaning about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or
others...or pissing and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as
long as you focus on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning.

Again, you're missing the point. The list moderation is part of it, as
communication is a crucial component of effectively collaborating on
this type of work. Then there's also the commit access business, where
ideally the code for one piece of software lives in one place, and
everyone is able to contribute to and benefit from it easily. That not
being the case also establishes artificial barriers that make it much
harder to focus on the distribution and just work, which is what you want.

Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets results and
motivates people to do jobs for some of the largest companies in the
world...what do I know?

I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the people
I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling and
berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them
to do what you want them to do. Just because they work for a large
organization doesn't make them perfect. BTW, when injustices really are
committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissing and
moaning" about it, that's also bullying.

[devnet]

Post by David Walser

Post by devnet
No, not exactly. You're wasting man power on focusing on things behind
you instead of in front of you. Moderated on a list means that your
posts still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag
toward people. Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop.
Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an
actual one.

Ah, but you're assuming that the people doing the moderation make this
distinction perfectly. Unfortunately, humans aren't perfect.

Who cares if they don't? Keep on focusing on the distribution and move
forward. Here you are worrying about what other people think of your posts
and whether or not they're being fair. Who cares? Keep posting RELEVANT
stuff that builds up instead of tears down. People will take notice if you
focus on the distribution. If your relevant stuff is filtered, file a
formal request...be tactful about it. Work the system that is in
place...don't piss and moan about how you don't like the system and how it
limits you.

Post by David Walser
It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one

Post by devnet
thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution. What a
novel concept eh? Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and
moaning about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or
others...or pissing and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as
long as you focus on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning.

Again, you're missing the point. The list moderation is part of it, as
communication is a crucial component of effectively collaborating on this
type of work. Then there's also the commit access business, where ideally
the code for one piece of software lives in one place, and everyone is able
to contribute to and benefit from it easily. That not being the case also
establishes artificial barriers that make it much harder to focus on the
distribution and just work, which is what you want.

Dude...I somehow was a developer for a distribution of Linux for THREE
YEARS without commit access. Did it slow me down? Yep. Did it matter to
me? Nope. I just sent my commits to someone who had access. This barrier
will fall to the wayside should you stop looking behind and start focusing
on the forward. Drop the ego at the door and let it go.

Post by David Walser
Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets results and

Post by devnet
motivates people to do jobs for some of the largest companies in the
world...what do I know?

I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the people
I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling and
berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them to
do what you want them to do. Just because they work for a large
organization doesn't make them perfect. BTW, when injustices really are
committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissing and
moaning" about it, that's also bullying.

Never said I was perfect. I just gave a one liner about who I was because
NO ONE outside of the Unity Linux folks know what I do or what I'm capable
of...sorry if you thought that I was trying to brag or if you thought it
was supposed to intimidate or condescend. That wasn't the goal...it was
simply to inform.

There you go again with your "injustices". Really guy, let it go. You're
too busy looking in the rear view mirror. When you focus on issues that
are past, no matter if you're right or wrong, we all lose. You trip others
up, you cause stress, you make others feel guilty if you're right or you
make others pissed off if you're wrong. It REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. Work on
the distribution. Stop the "I was persecuted!!! It's an injustice!!" crap
because all it does is distract YOU and distract OTHERS from what is really
important...and that is working on the distribution.

[David Walser]

Post by devnet
________________________________
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation? Really?

No, not exactly.  You're wasting man power on focusing on things behind
you instead of in front of you.  Moderated on a list means that your
posts still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag
toward people.  Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop.
Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an
actual one.

Ah, but you're assuming that the people doing the moderation make this distinction perfectly.  Unfortunately, humans aren't perfect.

Who cares if they don't?  Keep on focusing on the distribution and move forward.  Here you are worrying about what other people think of your posts and whether or not they're being fair.  Who cares?  Keep posting RELEVANT stuff that builds up instead of tears down.  People will take notice if you focus on the distribution.   If your relevant stuff is filtered, file a formal request...be tactful about it.  Work the system that is in place...don't piss and moan about how you don't like the system and how it limits you. 

Who cares, seriously!?  So you don't think restricting the ability of developers to communicate could ever be a problem?  You don't think someone unfairly restricting one person's communication because they don't like them or don't agree with them is OK, and is a healthy way to run an open-source project?  And who else are you going to file a "formal request" with to change this?  Why do you expect that people contribute to an open source project in their own free time and of their own free will would want to put up with such BS?  How can you just "focus on the distribution" if your ability to participate is so severely and arbitrarily curtailed?  The only thing that's tearing anything down right now is these arbitrary restrictions.

Post by devnet

It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one

thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution.  What a
novel concept eh?  Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and
moaning about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or
others...or pissing and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as
long as you focus on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning.

Again, you're missing the point.  The list moderation is part of it, as communication is a crucial component of effectively collaborating on this type of work.  Then there's also the commit access business, where ideally the code for one piece of software lives in one place, and everyone is able to contribute to and benefit from it easily.  That not being the case also establishes artificial barriers that make it much harder to focus on the distribution and just work, which is what you want.

Post by devnet
Dude...I somehow was a developer for a distribution of Linux for THREE YEARS without commit access.  Did it slow me down?  Yep.  Did it matter to me?  Nope.  I just sent my commits to someone who had access.  This barrier will fall to the wayside should you stop looking behind and start focusing on the forward.  Drop the ego at the door and let it go.

And I participated in Cooker for 9 years without any kind of commit access, but I also wasn't an extraordinarily active developer.  I'm not saying it doesn't work for anybody, I'm just saying it is a big problem for a major contributor, especially one who works on more than packages, but also self-hosted code like the installer and related tools.

Post by devnet

Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets results and

motivates people to do jobs for some of the largest companies in the
world...what do I know?

I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the people I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling and berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them to do what you want them to do.  Just because they work for a large organization doesn't make them perfect.  BTW, when injustices really are committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissing and moaning" about it, that's also bullying.

Post by devnet
Never said I was perfect.  I just gave a one liner about who I was because NO ONE outside of the Unity Linux folks know what I do or what I'm capable of...sorry if you thought that I was trying to brag or if you thought it was supposed to intimidate or condescend.  That wasn't the goal...it was simply to inform.
There you go again with your "injustices".  Really guy, let it go.  You're too busy looking in the rear view mirror.  When you focus on issues that are past, no matter if you're right or wrong, we all lose.  You trip others up, you cause stress, you make others feel guilty if you're right or you make others pissed off if you're wrong.  It REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.  Work on the distribution.  Stop the "I was persecuted!!!  It's an injustice!!" crap because all it does is distract YOU and distract OTHERS from what is really important...and that is working on the distribution.

There you go again insisting this is all in the past.  It's not!  That's why it's still be discussed now.  The problem persists at this very moment, and it can't just be "let go" because it is wrong and harmful.  I don't know why you want to keep putting words in everyone's mouth, saying they're looking back.  I'm saying, let's not look back, let's forget about the past disagreements and ugliness and start over with a clean slate.  Let's look forward, and find a solution that will be the best for the project going forward.  I'm saying let's be open and respectful.  Let's stop treating people like second-class citizens and being condescending and telling them to just stop "pissing and moaning" and just accept a bad situation.  This is open source.  People will not do that.

[Robert Xu]

I can't be arsed to respond to the debate below... Although I'll reiterate,
like I did in a past email - we can debate all we want, but it matters
NOTHING if we can't do something about it.

Want my proposal? Demoderate people on om-cooker and let's try this all
over again.

It at least brings an end to the current situation, and that is a
worthwhile solution.

Arisel: yes, while I'm sure the association is supposed to be the vehicle
for coordinating things, they crashed and screwed up on this issue big
time. So time to undo and try again.

Post by devnet
________________________________
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Cooker] [OM Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation? Really?

Post by David Walser

Post by devnet
No, not exactly. You're wasting man power on focusing on things behind
you instead of in front of you. Moderated on a list means that your
posts still make it there unless your being an incredible douche bag
toward people. Leave your ego at the door and all your barriers will drop.
Keep up the douchebaggery and you make that artificial barrier become an
actual one.

Ah, but you're assuming that the people doing the moderation make this

distinction perfectly. Unfortunately, humans aren't perfect.

Post by devnet
Who cares if they don't? Keep on focusing on the distribution and move

forward. Here you are worrying about what other people think of your posts
and whether or not they're being fair. Who cares? Keep posting RELEVANT
stuff that builds up instead of tears down. People will take notice if you
focus on the distribution. If your relevant stuff is filtered, file a
formal request...be tactful about it. Work the system that is in
place...don't piss and moan about how you don't like the system and how it
limits you.

Who cares, seriously!? So you don't think restricting the ability of

developers to communicate could ever be a problem? You don't think someone
unfairly restricting one person's communication because they don't like
them or don't agree with them is OK, and is a healthy way to run an
open-source project? And who else are you going to file a "formal request"
with to change this? Why do you expect that people contribute to an open
source project in their own free time and of their own free will would want
to put up with such BS? How can you just "focus on the distribution" if
your ability to participate is so severely and arbitrarily curtailed? The
only thing that's tearing anything down right now is these arbitrary
restrictions.

Post by devnet

Post by David Walser
It looks like to me you have NO barriers if you can just focus on one

Post by devnet
thing that everyone should be focusing on...the distribution. What a
novel concept eh? Focusing on the distribution instead of pissing and
moaning about all the injustices that were heaped upon you or
others...or pissing and moaning about a barrier that doesn't exist as
long as you focus on the distribution instead of pissing and moaning.

Again, you're missing the point. The list moderation is part of it, as

communication is a crucial component of effectively collaborating on this
type of work. Then there's also the commit access business, where ideally
the code for one piece of software lives in one place, and everyone is able
to contribute to and benefit from it easily. That not being the case also
establishes artificial barriers that make it much harder to focus on the
distribution and just work, which is what you want.

Post by devnet
Dude...I somehow was a developer for a distribution of Linux for THREE

YEARS without commit access. Did it slow me down? Yep. Did it matter to
me? Nope. I just sent my commits to someone who had access. This barrier
will fall to the wayside should you stop looking behind and start focusing
on the forward. Drop the ego at the door and let it go.

And I participated in Cooker for 9 years without any kind of commit

access, but I also wasn't an extraordinarily active developer. I'm not
saying it doesn't work for anybody, I'm just saying it is a big problem for
a major contributor, especially one who works on more than packages, but
also self-hosted code like the installer and related tools.

Post by devnet

Post by David Walser
Just my 2 cents...but I'm a project manager that gets results and

Post by devnet
motivates people to do jobs for some of the largest companies in the
world...what do I know?

I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the people

I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling and
berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them to
do what you want them to do. Just because they work for a large
organization doesn't make them perfect. BTW, when injustices really are
committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissing and
moaning" about it, that's also bullying.

Post by devnet
Never said I was perfect. I just gave a one liner about who I was

because NO ONE outside of the Unity Linux folks know what I do or what I'm
capable of...sorry if you thought that I was trying to brag or if you
thought it was supposed to intimidate or condescend. That wasn't the
goal...it was simply to inform.

Post by devnet
There you go again with your "injustices". Really guy, let it go.

You're too busy looking in the rear view mirror. When you focus on issues
that are past, no matter if you're right or wrong, we all lose. You trip
others up, you cause stress, you make others feel guilty if you're right or
you make others pissed off if you're wrong. It REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.
Work on the distribution. Stop the "I was persecuted!!! It's an
injustice!!" crap because all it does is distract YOU and distract OTHERS
from what is really important...and that is working on the distribution.

There you go again insisting this is all in the past. It's not! That's

why it's still be discussed now. The problem persists at this very moment,
and it can't just be "let go" because it is wrong and harmful. I don't
know why you want to keep putting words in everyone's mouth, saying they're
looking back. I'm saying, let's not look back, let's forget about the past
disagreements and ugliness and start over with a clean slate. Let's look
forward, and find a solution that will be the best for the project going
forward. I'm saying let's be open and respectful. Let's stop treating
people like second-class citizens and being condescending and telling them
to just stop "pissing and moaning" and just accept a bad situation. This
is open source. People will not do that.

[devnet]

Who cares, seriously!? So you don't think restricting the ability of
developers to communicate could ever be a problem? You don't think someone
unfairly restricting one person's communication because they don't like
them or don't agree with them is OK, and is a healthy way to run an
open-source project? And who else are you going to file a "formal request"
with to change this? Why do you expect that people contribute to an open
source project in their own free time and of their own free will would want
to put up with such BS? How can you just "focus on the distribution" if
your ability to participate is so severely and arbitrarily curtailed? The
only thing that's tearing anything down right now is these arbitrary
restrictions.

Sure it's going to slow him down...and that sucks...it sucks whenever
anyone's behavior causes multiple people to arrive at the conclusion they
need their messages moderated. Most people on this mailing list have no
idea why anyone would be moderated on it. I remember them calling at least
3 different meetings about that individual being moderated...sounds like
they didn't come to the decision lightly.

Maybe instead of wagging your finger of injustice at the people who
moderate you might consider wagging your finger at the person moderated to
RESPECT THE DECISION so that they can SHOW the deciding parties that he no
longer exhibits said behavior and can have his messages arrive unmoderated?
Might be a good thing to do. It's also the grown up thing to do.
Continuing to bring up perceived injustices means you don't respect any
decision made. It disrespects the people who made them. It's akin to
spitting in the faces of each and every individual who took part in the
decision and every single individual who believes in the organization that
made the decision. Think about those things for a bit.

And I participated in Cooker for 9 years without any kind of commit
access, but I also wasn't an extraordinarily active developer. I'm not
saying it doesn't work for anybody, I'm just saying it is a big problem for
a major contributor, especially one who works on more than packages, but
also self-hosted code like the installer and related tools.

I agree. And the ball is in his court. If he shows through his behavior
that he's moved on and can focus strictly on the software without bringing
up all the injustices he's suffered from...he might be surprised at how
fast access is given again.

I could be totally off base, but possibly as much as some of the people
I've come into contact with at work recently, who think that yelling and
berating and insulting and bullying people is the best way to get them to
do what you want them to do. Just because they work for a large
organization doesn't make them perfect. BTW, when injustices really are
committed against people, and then you criticize them for "pissing and
moaning" about it, that's also bullying.

You think this is insulting and bullying? You need thicker skin. If I
were berating and insulting and bullying it would be much more harsher than
"stop focusing on the past and start looking forward".

There you go again insisting this is all in the past. It's not! That's
why it's still be discussed now. The problem persists at this very moment,
and it can't just be "let go" because it is wrong and harmful. I don't
know why you want to keep putting words in everyone's mouth, saying they're
looking back. I'm saying, let's not look back, let's forget about the past
disagreements and ugliness and start over with a clean slate. Let's look
forward, and find a solution that will be the best for the project going
forward. I'm saying let's be open and respectful. Let's stop treating
people like second-class citizens and being condescending and telling them
to just stop "pissing and moaning" and just accept a bad situation. This
is open source. People will not do that.

When did all the stuff that made everyone so bitter happen again? Oh the
past? That's right...it's BEHIND US. How about we quit bringing it to the
front eh? Move on. If he wants things to go back to as they were...start
by respecting the decisions made even if you don't agree with them because
it wasn't just one person who arrived at those conclusions. Respect is
given to those who give it and it's EARNED. Hopefully, everyone can put
all this idiotic arguing behind and move forward.

[Raphaël Jadot]

Post by Robert Xu
I can't be arsed to respond to the debate below... Although I'll
reiterate, like I did in a past email - we can debate all we want, but it
matters NOTHING if we can't do something about it.
Want my proposal? Demoderate people on om-cooker and let's try this all
over again.
It at least brings an end to the current situation, and that is a
worthwhile solution.
Arisel: yes, while I'm sure the association is supposed to be the vehicle
for coordinating things, they crashed and screwed up on this issue big
time. So time to undo and try again.

Aside: Association is not "they", you're part of it an as you noticed, as
soon as you asked about qa team, you became coordinator without any
condition, just we asked: what do you need? Same for all teams, infra,
comm, etc. If by association you mean Council, it is just a group of
members having to represent all members, manage its treasury, hardware,
legal stuff (including naming) and preparing the overall structure.

There were problems only with one person that was excluded from council
from not respecting what was voted in it, (was a problem of behaviour), and
I hope this is past now, if by "Association" you mean council, it has
nothing to do with the moderation as cooker is autonomous.

The association is part of groups that are intended to be autonomous. The
development team (which is called historically cooker) is part of it, and
apparently has difficulties to self-organize. It's not such big deal. There
is no "crash" nor "screw" no reason to continue a drama here.

There is however to think at the next step to resolve these problems, and
stop listening at legends and feeding them.

[Robert Xu]

If by association you mean Council, it is just a group of members having

to represent all members, manage its treasury, hardware, legal stuff
(including naming) and preparing the overall structure.

Yeah, I meant Council.

There were problems only with one person that was excluded from council

from not respecting what was voted in it, (was a problem of behaviour), and
I hope this is past now, if by "Association" you mean council, it has
nothing to do with the moderation as cooker is autonomous.

The association is part of groups that are intended to be autonomous. The

development team (which is called historically cooker) is part of it, and
apparently has difficulties to self-organize. It's not such big deal. There
is no "crash" nor "screw" no reason to continue a drama here.

There is however to think at the next step to resolve these problems, and

stop listening at legends and feeding them.

I think we're having difficulties reaching this next step of resolving the
problems.

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Robert Xu

If by association you mean Council, it is just a group of members having

to represent all members, manage its treasury, hardware, legal stuff
(including naming) and preparing the overall structure.
Yeah, I meant Council.

There were problems only with one person that was excluded from council

from not respecting what was voted in it, (was a problem of behaviour), and
I hope this is past now, if by "Association" you mean council, it has
nothing to do with the moderation as cooker is autonomous.

What wasn't respected?

If cooker is autonomous, how come that this decission that was made outside
of cooker influenced cooker without it's involvement?

Post by Robert Xu

The association is part of groups that are intended to be autonomous.

The development team (which is called historically cooker) is part of it,

How come that you without even participating in the project can decide for
the project's developers that they're the development team of the
association, where and when was this decided?

Post by Robert Xu
Considering and apparently has difficulties to self-organize. It's not
such big deal.

There's been quite a few complaints about the current state of the project,
it's lack of leadership and progress, I'd say that is a big deal.

Post by Robert Xu
There is no "crash" nor "screw" no reason to continue a drama here.

The fact that there's no other contributors supporting the decission made
by the council & Jochen to moderate me seems to suggest otherwise, same
goes for my access being revoked on ABF.

If there's supposedly no crash here, then why hasn't this been reverted?

Post by Robert Xu

There is however to think at the next step to resolve these problems,

and stop listening at legends and feeding them.
I think we're having difficulties reaching this next step of resolving the
problems.

The resolution is obvious and the one voiced by most in here; stop blocking
me from participating in the project or at least provide an actual
rationale for doing so that is accepted by those contributing to the
project.

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[devnet]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Per Øyvind Karlsen

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen
The resolution is obvious and the one voiced by most in here; stop
blocking me from participating in the project or at least provide an actual
rationale for doing so that is accepted by those contributing to the
project.
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

Stop bringing up small, backbiting issues from the past on the mailing list
and keep it based on the software and I bet you'll get unblocked. Try
it...see if you're as smart as you think you are.

[Raphaël Jadot]

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

If by association you mean Council, it is just a group of members

having to represent all members, manage its treasury, hardware, legal stuff
(including naming) and preparing the overall structure.
Yeah, I meant Council.

There were problems only with one person that was excluded from council

from not respecting what was voted in it, (was a problem of behaviour), and
I hope this is past now, if by "Association" you mean council, it has
nothing to do with the moderation as cooker is autonomous.

What wasn't respected?
If cooker is autonomous, how come that this decission that was made
outside of cooker influenced cooker without it's involvement?

Well, the name has been called cooker as historical reason, I was in favour
of having another name for avoiding any confusion, but most people were in
favour of having the name cooker.

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

The association is part of groups that are intended to be autonomous.

The development team (which is called historically cooker) is part of it,

How come that you without even participating in the project can decide for
the project's developers that they're the development team of the
association, where and when was this decided?

Me with even participating in the project? So you consider this is a
technocracy where only technical people are "really" participating or
deserve to be considered as? I guess it's mainly the problem of the
catch-all "project" word. You have a project, but have a lot of
difficulties to admit that people can have a different project than yours.
As said before, we can feed both projects, and even merge, you don't need
to destroy the other projects. Anyway, I can understand this vision, but as
from the very start of the history of openmandriva there is a big
misunderstanding (ie you thought the association was created to support
your project, while it was a simply new project in which you were invited
to participate. At the end you considered it as a hijack and claimed it
everywhere.

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen
Considering and apparently has difficulties to self-organize. It's not

such big deal.

There's been quite a few complaints about the current state of the
project, it's lack of leadership and progress, I'd say that is a big deal.

I will not feed this troll :)

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

There is no "crash" nor "screw" no reason to continue a drama here.

The fact that there's no other contributors supporting the decission made
by the council & Jochen to moderate me seems to suggest otherwise, same
goes for my access being revoked on ABF.
If there's supposedly no crash here, then why hasn't this been reverted?

I can't answer this, I'm not managing this, this is a dec. Did you improve
your behaviour? Did you ask politely? Did they not answer?

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

There is however to think at the next step to resolve these problems,

and stop listening at legends and feeding them.
I think we're having difficulties reaching this next step of resolving
the problems.

The resolution is obvious and the one voiced by most in here; stop
blocking me from participating in the project or at least provide an actual
rationale for doing so that is accepted by those contributing to the
project.

I'm not wanting to block you contributing, I even was long time in favour
(and even found mostly how) hire you in the association before... well,
past is past, I think you'll never apologize of some thing you did because
you don't realize why it was bad. For me, it's not a problem if you come
back as a hero, far the contrary if it helps OpenMandriva.

One proposal of next step, by the way, is to have a common view of what is
the "project" (by common I mean all aspects of openmandriva, users,
contributors may they be developers or not, sponsors, members, partners
etc) and agree on it. Then it will stop to be a catch-all holy word and we
will have something to follow more important than egos, even huge :)

Basically simple question, what do you consider as the mission of
OpenMandriva, what is its place in the world, is it there to meet some
needs of the world, or bring something new to the creativity, evolution.

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Raphaël Jadot]

Post by Raphaël Jadot
I can't answer this, I'm not managing this, this is a dec. Did you improve
your behaviour? Did you ask politely? Did they not answer?

Sorry cut sentence: this is a decision from TC, but imho I'm not sure they
were knowing how to managing it, and mainly hoping you being back with
improved behaviour.

[Guy Bormann]

Post by Raphaël Jadot
I can't answer this, I'm not managing this, this is a dec. Did
you improve your behaviour? Did you ask politely? Did they not
answer?
Sorry cut sentence: this is a decision from TC, but imho I'm not sure
they were knowing how to managing it, and mainly hoping you being back
with improved behaviour.

Can you _ALL_ please _STOP_ crossposting???? I'm not interested in
Association policy traffic (and unsubscribed to OM Cooker for that
reason).

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Guy Bormann

Post by Raphaël Jadot
I can't answer this, I'm not managing this, this is a dec. Did
you improve your behaviour? Did you ask politely? Did they not
answer?
Sorry cut sentence: this is a decision from TC, but imho I'm not sure
they were knowing how to managing it, and mainly hoping you being back
with improved behaviour.

Can you _ALL_ please _STOP_ crossposting???? I'm not interested in
Association policy traffic (and unsubscribed to OM Cooker for that
reason).

What, Raphaël cross posting? I didn't think this was allowed, considering
that he used it as an excuse for excluding me, one would think that he'd be
hold himself up to the arbitrary rules he chooses to dictate on the go for
others..

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Raphaël Jadot

Post by Raphaël Jadot
I can't answer this, I'm not managing this, this is a dec. Did you
improve your behaviour? Did you ask politely? Did they not answer?

Sorry cut sentence: this is a decision from TC, but imho I'm not sure they
were knowing how to managing it, and mainly hoping you being back with
improved behaviour.

Why? I see no improved behaviour from yourself, so why do you attack me for
the agitated you get?
Stop deflecting.
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Raphaël Jadot]

It was rhetoricale. And I don't say you need to ask me something I don't manage.

Post by Per Øyvind Karlsen

Post by Raphaël Jadot

Post by Raphaël Jadot
I can't answer this, I'm not managing this, this is a dec. Did you
improve your behaviour? Did you ask politely? Did they not answer?

Sorry cut sentence: this is a decision from TC, but imho I'm not sure

they

Post by Raphaël Jadot
were knowing how to managing it, and mainly hoping you being back

with

Post by Raphaël Jadot
improved behaviour.

Why? I see no improved behaviour from yourself, so why do you attack me for
the agitated you get?
Stop deflecting.
--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

Post by Raphaël Jadot
It was rhetoricale. And I don't say you need to ask me something I don't manage.

I ask for you to stop provoking it, you are the one responsible for the
behaviour that you criticize me for.

Stop deflecting with personal attacks.

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind

[Ben Bullard]

Post by David Walser

Post by Ben Bullard

Post by Ben Bullard
I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict.
Obviously internal discussion/meetings have produced no result
acceptable to all involved.
Just one humble users opinion.
--
Ben Bullard
I'm thinking everyone just needs to quit crying about spilled milk and
work on the distribution. Who gives a crap what went on when? Move
forward and leave your ego at the door.
I thought I left primary school 30 years ago. Evidently, it's still
in session..
--
________________________________________
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/dkdevine/>
<https://plus.google.com/117069291335504349557/posts>
<https://twitter.com/devnet>
devnet
http://linux-blog.org

Frankly what you write ismore articulate and better said than what I
wrote. Closer to what I really believe. Thanks for wise words.
--
Thanks,
Ben

I basically agree, but people have to have the ability to just work on
the distribution, without having to deal with artificial barriers that
prevent them from doing so. If that could just be fixed, all of this
fighting could end and everyone could get back to work without all the
drama.

Interesting viewpoint. I'm just a user, not a developer. What are the
artificial barriers that prevent people from working on the distribution?

[Blackcrack Moondrake]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: [OM Cooker] [Cooker] Are we still doing this moderation?
Really?
Datum: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 11:29:26 +0200
Von: Blackcrack <***@blackysgate.de>
Antwort an: Cooker OpenMandriva <om-***@ml.openmandriva.org>
An: Cooker OpenMandriva <om-***@ml.openmandriva.org>, Jochen
Schönfelder arisel <***@arisel.de>, Per Øyvind Karlsen
<***@moondrake.net>



Hi,

Post by Ben Bullard
I'm thinking we need outside mediation to resolve this conflict.
Obviously internal discussion/meetings have produced no result
acceptable to all involved.
Just one humble users opinion.

i think a real Meeting it is in this case maybe more important..

the Travel money has get the Association as support for an
general/Common HeatMeeting on Paris or maybe Germany
or were ever on this Eurpe continent for regulate this troubles once and
for ever ..
An Developer - TCHeadMeeting all 2 Years it is maybe not bad for
speaking out
and resolve the Problems, Troubles and planing in the next 2 Years in
Realtime ..

This support should be possible from the Association ..
(or why else do we have a Association.. for exactly like this ! imo)

An TC HeadMeeting for Packers and Developers
(include Per Øyvind Karlsen he is an Member of the Mandriva
Distriebution to,
maybe not in the Association but an Member on the on the Pot and it
is therewith an Developer too ! )

in my opinion as Member of the Artworkgroup and As Long Year Extended
Mandrake User !

And at last it is this Distribution For the User and whole the other who
want using this Distribution.

an problem resolving in the the ranks of the Developer and Packer it is
just as necessary as a correckte cooperation


2. Moderation .. maybe it is Rules for common live important too, but to
ban the mouth it is like an Gun on the Mouth,
also not correct .. the live it is even an Pot of different Opinions ..
an moderation it is only good for real Trolls
(and this it is Per not !!) or real Project Destroyer ( and this is per
also not !!! )
Per have maybe his own will and shows some other like they are who comes
later to this project and don't
knows what's realy goes on ..i be since the start on this Project, i had
Telephoning with
Jean Manuel Croset on Phone, he had call me at the 2nd phoning from
Paris at the evening ..

I now like a give what's goes on there directly.. some it is not like it
as it seems ..

me have not take in to the Association because i be an troublemaker .. i
am ?? sorry.. not really ..
i make only troubles if goes something wrong .. but there be already the
troubles.. but because not me !

Per.. rules be on the live.. and need in the live, you know it .. so
please,

http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_guidelines

in the Mailinglist .. fellow them..

Per, what do you do in you own Mailinglist it is other .. but, play the
game with on the Cooker-OM-Association-Overtaker-game
fellow this rules :
http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_guidelines
and you be not Moderated..
And Per.. Arisel be not you enemy ..

the next.. Moondrake or an other Distriebution ..

Hey, why supporting Openmandriva and if comes Mageia and the whole other
Distributions
and at last tell they are an other Distribution it is not needed and
supported.. ? .. like Moondrake ?

hey sorry, other Distributor other soul of the Distribution, in the
spice is the variety why so not supporting an 2nd Distriebution by side
of OpenMandriva .. i tell you why, you whant as Association not lost the
hands over the Distriebutions into the Community, because, the moondrake
can be more important as OM, why.. the Installer and the feeling it is
more them of the Mandrake and not them of OM .. and you have scare to
lost the hand over both distributions .. because the Developers show now
what's goes really on .. with the Game of the Association .... and this
it is my show of the things and my opinion ..

So Arisel, maby it is better if be Per unmoderatet if he fellow the
OM-Cooker -Rules
http://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Cooker#Communication_guidelines Please
ask him again ..

Per, Please, read the Rules and fellow this in the Chanels of Open
Mandriva, what it is in your own cooker-chanell's or how offen you tell
fuXXX or basXXXs say in you chanel it is else as you say it in
OM-Chanells .. Rules be createt in them Groups in them chanells were you
have to fellow .. and you have you own rules in you won Chanel and at
last if it is in any way possible to create an Moondrake , so have you
you own rules in you own Distribution in you own Forum and own Wiki or
something else ..

So, please create an real TC Head Meeting on this continent in the next
half Year for speaking out at all and
for making plans in the next 2-3 Years ! Some Meeting it is Important to
show together eye in eye
and tell ear in ear what's going on.. that you can also discuss 1:1 !

So, please make a general TC meeting where all developer and Packer are
present! PLEASE !
Not in Mailinglist, not in IRC, -> IN REALTIME !
And travel expenses should shall be borne by the Association.
( because what the Association otherwise is there to draw the
Distribution? No, I think not!
The Community and Developers and at last the Users have this to do ! )

so.. please unmoderated Per.. and Per, please Fellow the Rules in
OM-Chanells (comes what want.. in you own Chanel) !

just my 2¢
i go now to buy eat, do my errands and be away for now..


best regards
Blacky

Blackcrack
Blackysgate.de

[Blackcrack Moondrake]

Hi Liam :)

do you know this.. maybe want interesting if we have an Webcam-Audio
Chat server ..
http://www.webrtc.org/

Easy browsing to this server, Username and login.. but this is not this
what need ..
(but it's a nice suggestion maybe :) )

a physical meeting it is in this case maby a more need and if that does
not bear fruit ,
fly one out in the highest arc.. a ending of this project, is quite out
of the bag !
Mandriva/Mandrake mus survive and be rebuilt again, because it is and is
was the
best Distriebution in the past and can be the best rpm-based
Distriebution in the
Future but the children have to just fight together ;) Or build easy two
Distriebutions..
as Branch, one OM and one Moondrake and imo have the Association this
supporting too,
but i bet, they dont ! Because, they whant not loose the handling about
like they have now on OM .
And i understand Per too .. i have at all noticed .. deleted meetingslog
from an Ex Mandriva worker..
wrong accusations in directions of Per .. and and and..
the all old Cheese for holding Per Øyvind Karlsen outside..(or for the
possible to kick him out ..) in my opinion ..
I've noticed as well .. otherwise i do not say, as it is ..
because, living in Paris not only Raphael and Vanier, also ex employee
.. if you see what i want say with it.. ;)

best regards
Blacky

Post by Blackcrack Moondrake
i think a real Meeting it is in this case maybe more important..

You are right - all cooker has become is a place where people pour
hatred and disrespect at one another. I've seen many times groups where
a physical meeting has ended such behaviour and produced a constructive
work environment... and a few where it didn't and the best thing was to
abandon the project altogether. Sometimes what seems like disrespect is
really just a language difference, but it can take meeting to understand
that. A lower-cost alternative can be telephone or hangouts with vide
and audio.
I thought I was unsubscribed, but the messages just started again so
I'll wander off for real this time.
Liam

[Liam R E Quin]

Post by Blackcrack Moondrake
i think a real Meeting it is in this case maybe more important..

You are right - all cooker has become is a place where people pour
hatred and disrespect at one another. I've seen many times groups where
a physical meeting has ended such behaviour and produced a constructive
work environment... and a few where it didn't and the best thing was to
abandon the project altogether. Sometimes what seems like disrespect is
really just a language difference, but it can take meeting to understand
that. A lower-cost alternative can be telephone or hangouts with vide
and audio.

I thought I was unsubscribed, but the messages just started again so
I'll wander off for real this time.

Liam

[Guy Bormann]

Post by Blackcrack Moondrake
i think a real Meeting it is in this case maybe more important..

You are right - all cooker has become is a place where people pour
hatred and disrespect at one another. I've seen many times groups where
a physical meeting has ended such behaviour and produced a constructive
work environment... and a few where it didn't and the best thing was to
abandon the project altogether. Sometimes what seems like disrespect is
really just a language difference, but it can take meeting to understand
that. A lower-cost alternative can be telephone or hangouts with vide
and audio.
I thought I was unsubscribed, but the messages just started again so
I'll wander off for real this time.

Join the club! It's as if I'm haunting in my sleep :-)